New feature: Whitelisting!

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Admin
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New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Admin » 20 Jun 2007, 00:35

Dear TrashMail.net members,

the whitelisting feature is now implemented! Have fun with this. Additionnally I have migrated TrashMail.net from my old ADSL line to a professional datacenter with a real high bandwith internet connection on a new server.
There should be no more permanent network outages problems as it was before with my ADSL line. :D
Best regards,
Stephan Ferraro
Founder of TrashMail.com
CEO of Aionda GmbH

Z
Posts: 189
Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 10:28
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Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Z » 20 Jun 2007, 06:39

I guess some of this stuff is general, some should be in bugs section and some other stuff in to do area. So, I'll simply put it here, with the announcment about these new features.

1. Confirmation message layout

Acception confirmation information should be in BEGINNING of message, not at the end.
If email is long, then it's very unclear to (busy) user what happened. Suggested form:
*Trashmail stuff here*

-- Sent message follows --

* Original sent message *
2. Feedback messages

IMHO! I wouldnt sent out those confirmation messages. I mean accepted or deleted at all. There is simply no point of doing that. And in some cases it might actually create a problem. If messages is ignored (expire or delete), then it is. If it's confirmed by recepient or send then it is. No need to send crap.

3. Reply masking

It seems that reply masking is broken when using whitelisting. So if I reply to message that came trough whitelisting then I can't reply to it using my trashmail.net address (using reply masking).

4. Confirmtion by email

I know lot of users that have access to email, but they don't have access to web. Due corporate restrictions or other reasons. Like using simple PDA email. If there could be some way to confirm messages using email only? I could suggest several methods, but I guess it's out of scope for this comment list.

5. Possible loop problem

I tried if you have a looping problem. Confirm, confirmation message by confirming confirmation message. You dont seem to be having this problem. I was already laughing that I'll crash the system. I have seen too many times "moronic" problems. But I'm very happy that you didnt have this problem. ;)

6. Manage mail queue

Doesnt work now for some reason:
Internal error: Invalid trashmail username format in trashmail_getuid(...) call. Please contact the system administrator.


Btw. It did work in the morning with Firefox, it might be URL or server related. Didnt have time to check it completely out.

Url: https://ssl.trashmail.net/?login=1&auth ... _mailqueue

I might know the reason. I ignore all non-session cookies. Do you use those? I changed some settings, no help. So I guess its not about this, there is some another reason. I think it's funny that login is 1 and auth is 1. I'll try to enter key information to url and see what happens. Nope, didnt help either.

Managing WL mail queue and addresses work for another account and wont work for another. So it doesn't have anything to do with web browser.

Afaik whitelisting works now very well.

7. Disable confirmation

Seems to be working as I expected. But in this case, should we create bounce or not? It seems that no bounce is being generated. My opinion is that in this special case there should be bounce message. So sender knows that message was rejected. So they can try another way contacting recipient.

Update: Bounce was generated, I didn't receive it in time due slow email systems.

8. Whitelist when sending

This should work, it's important. When I send email, rules allowing reply to be sent back without confirmation is important. Every message confirmation is exception. But this can create dead lock kind of situation like loop. Both are waiting for confirmation which is waiting for confirmation.

9. Confirmation message from address

That's though question too. I think it should be the recipient address instead of robot@trashmail.net. Think about that deadlock situation. And think about general email "street wise rules". I'll get email from some robot that asks me to confirm my email. Afaik, it would be much nicer to get it from the address that I sent my email to. Because then it would be immediately clear that it's about my email. Not about "confirming my email" for "some reason". Or do you now automaticly process any bounces to robot address? Fixing issue 1. might solve this. I guess you'll user robot address to prevent looping?

10. Black listing?
If there are problems, there might be requirement to add blacklisting which prevents from whitelisting. I guess there might be abuse cases where some user (sender) whitelists all messages even confirmation for every message is required. Then black listing would help.

End of summary

These are my first impressions, comments and thoughts.

You said...
I tried to eliminate a maximum of bugs! :-)
- That's very nice... ;)

I think this is good discussion opening... Lets hear other comments!

Admin
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Posts: 1243
Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 08:55
Location: Germany
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Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Admin » 20 Jun 2007, 07:12

Z wrote:I guess some of this stuff is general, some should be in bugs section and some other stuff in to do area. So, I'll simply put it here, with the announcment about these new features.

1. Confirmation message layout

Acception confirmation information should be in BEGINNING of message, not at the end.
If email is long, then it's very unclear to (busy) user what happened. Suggested form:
*Trashmail stuff here*

-- Sent message follows --

* Original sent message *
2. Feedback messages

IMHO! I wouldnt sent out those confirmation messages. I mean accepted or deleted at all. There is simply no point of doing that. And in some cases it might actually create a problem. If messages is ignored (expire or delete), then it is. If it's confirmed by recepient or send then it is. No need to send crap.

3. Reply masking

It seems that reply masking is broken when using whitelisting. So if I reply to message that came trough whitelisting then I can't reply to it using my trashmail.net address (using reply masking).

4. Confirmtion by email

I know lot of users that have access to email, but they don't have access to web. Due corporate restrictions or other reasons. Like using simple PDA email. If there could be some way to confirm messages using email only? I could suggest several methods, but I guess it's out of scope for this comment list.

5. Possible loop problem

I tried if you have a looping problem. Confirm, confirmation message by confirming confirmation message. You dont seem to be having this problem. I was already laughing that I'll crash the system. I have seen too many times "moronic" problems. But I'm very happy that you didnt have this problem. ;)

6. Manage mail queue

Doesnt work now for some reason:
Internal error: Invalid trashmail username format in trashmail_getuid(...) call. Please contact the system administrator.


Btw. It did work in the morning with Firefox, it might be URL or server related. Didnt have time to check it completely out.

Url: https://ssl.trashmail.net/?login=1&auth ... _mailqueue

I might know the reason. I ignore all non-session cookies. Do you use those? I changed some settings, no help. So I guess its not about this, there is some another reason. I think it's funny that login is 1 and auth is 1. I'll try to enter key information to url and see what happens. Nope, didnt help either.

Managing WL mail queue and addresses work for another account and wont work for another. So it doesn't have anything to do with web browser.

Afaik whitelisting works now very well.

7. Disable confirmation

Seems to be working as I expected. But in this case, should we create bounce or not? It seems that no bounce is being generated. My opinion is that in this special case there should be bounce message. So sender knows that message was rejected. So they can try another way contacting recipient.

Update: Bounce was generated, I didn't receive it in time due slow email systems.

8. Whitelist when sending

This should work, it's important. When I send email, rules allowing reply to be sent back without confirmation is important. Every message confirmation is exception. But this can create dead lock kind of situation like loop. Both are waiting for confirmation which is waiting for confirmation.

9. Confirmation message from address

That's though question too. I think it should be the recipient address instead of robot@trashmail.net. Think about that deadlock situation. And think about general email "street wise rules". I'll get email from some robot that asks me to confirm my email. Afaik, it would be much nicer to get it from the address that I sent my email to. Because then it would be immediately clear that it's about my email. Not about "confirming my email" for "some reason". Or do you now automaticly process any bounces to robot address? Fixing issue 1. might solve this. I guess you'll user robot address to prevent looping?

10. Black listing?
If there are problems, there might be requirement to add blacklisting which prevents from whitelisting. I guess there might be abuse cases where some user (sender) whitelists all messages even confirmation for every message is required. Then black listing would help.

End of summary

These are my first impressions, comments and thoughts.

You said...
I tried to eliminate a maximum of bugs! :-)
- That's very nice... ;)

I think this is good discussion opening... Lets hear other comments!
Thanks very much for your comment. I will begin with point 1, then I continue to all your points. For the first point I would prefer to have the trashmail message also on the top. The reason why its below is because its RFC standard to reply below and not at top. However I prefer it should be on top because on long messages you don't need to scroll down.
Best regards,
Stephan Ferraro
Founder of TrashMail.com
CEO of Aionda GmbH

Admin
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Posts: 1243
Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 08:55
Location: Germany
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Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Admin » 20 Jun 2007, 07:19

Z wrote: 6. Manage mail queue
Internal error: Invalid trashmail username format in trashmail_getuid(...) call. Please contact the system administrator.
I corrected this bug:
It was because I forgot to check that the TrashMail username could also contain numbers. You probably used a name with numbers.
Best regards,
Stephan Ferraro
Founder of TrashMail.com
CEO of Aionda GmbH

Z
Posts: 189
Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 10:28
Contact:

Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Z » 20 Jun 2007, 09:09

Admin wrote:You probably used a name with numbers.
That's right... - Thanks!

Z
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 10:28
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Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Z » 21 Jun 2007, 15:13

Would you like to comment any other things on my list?

- Thanks!

Admin
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Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Admin » 21 Jun 2007, 15:18

Z wrote:Would you like to comment any other things on my list?

- Thanks!
Yes, but I'm still working on point 1.
Best regards,
Stephan Ferraro
Founder of TrashMail.com
CEO of Aionda GmbH

Z
Posts: 189
Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 10:28
Contact:

Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Z » 25 Jun 2007, 06:37

Point 1. seems to be done. ;)

- Thanks!

Next please! ;)

Admin
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Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Admin » 25 Jun 2007, 08:51

Z wrote: 2. Feedback messages
Point 1 is done. :D
Note: Original messages are cut off after 64 kb with the message at the bottom "...more...".

Now Point 2:
I will make changes that it would send only one feedback message for multiple messages by the sender, and one confirmation would be enough to send out all emails. By the way I have added the X-TrashMail-Key field to add a new system of certification for messages. Messages which contains a valid X-TrashMail-Key value are certified by Trashmail. Its normally login:web_password
The idea is to distinguish between outside emails and emails coming really from TrashMail, because everybody could fake the From header field, but there is a need to know which emails could be trust. So simply add in your email client to accept all emails with the correct X-TrashMail-Key field.

The idea is the following:
If I have foobar@mymail.com and I would like to implement whitelisting for this address, but if my mail provider would not provide this functionality, I would like to forward every incoming e-mail to TrashMail.net and let TrashMail to do the whitelisting job. Once TrashMail forwards me accepted emails to the same address, I need to distinguish between outside incoming emails and emails of TrashMail.net.
Best regards,
Stephan Ferraro
Founder of TrashMail.com
CEO of Aionda GmbH

Z
Posts: 189
Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 10:28
Contact:

Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Z » 25 Jun 2007, 14:20

Admin wrote: I will make changes that it would send only one feedback message for multiple messages by the sender, and one confirmation would be enough to send out all emails.
Sounds very good.
By the way I have added the X-TrashMail-Key field
Excellent!
If I have foobar@mymail.com and I would like to implement whitelisting for this address, but if my mail provider would not provide this functionality, I would like to forward every incoming e-mail to TrashMail.net and let TrashMail to do the whitelisting job. Once TrashMail forwards me accepted emails to the same address, I need to distinguish between outside incoming emails and emails of TrashMail.net.
I might use that too. I'm person which is hard to reach anyway. I usually let all phone calls go to answering service. When ever message is left, then I will call back. I have noticed that most of callers wont leave a message, it only means that thye dont have anything important to say. It's just like whitelisting... ;)

IMHO, I still think that FEEDBACK messages arent needed. That confirmation after givin confirmation code should be enough.

Why you do like confirmation messages so much?

Admin
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Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Admin » 25 Jun 2007, 14:58

Z wrote: Why you do like confirmation messages so much?
Thats only that if the guy tries to validate your email, and the web interface produce an error message because you accepted already the email, that he don't think that the website is broken.
Best regards,
Stephan Ferraro
Founder of TrashMail.com
CEO of Aionda GmbH

Z
Posts: 189
Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 10:28
Contact:

Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Z » 25 Jun 2007, 15:33

Admin wrote:That he don't think that the website is broken.
Hmm, how about saving confirmed urls for a while like two weeks or so, as long as you save mail in queue. Then you could tell that it's already been confirmed. This could also happen if someone whitelists from queue that message.

- Comments?

IMHO, this would be better.

Admin
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Posts: 1243
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Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Admin » 25 Jun 2007, 16:20

Z wrote:
Admin wrote:That he don't think that the website is broken.
Hmm, how about saving confirmed urls for a while like two weeks or so, as long as you save mail in queue. Then you could tell that it's already been confirmed. This could also happen if someone whitelists from queue that message.

- Comments?

IMHO, this would be better.
Yes, this would be a good idea. But we have to add this in the ToDo list. I'm currently overbooked with all technical problems. I first need to get in work this X-TrashMail-Key system, because I receive to much spam per day.
Best regards,
Stephan Ferraro
Founder of TrashMail.com
CEO of Aionda GmbH

Admin
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Posts: 1243
Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 08:55
Location: Germany
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Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Admin » 25 Jun 2007, 22:14

To point 1.: Only one confirmation email is now send if emails an email is already in the queue.
By the way: When you accept manually emails in the queue, you accept all emails per sender. But you delete individual emails (not all emails of one sender email address).
Best regards,
Stephan Ferraro
Founder of TrashMail.com
CEO of Aionda GmbH

Z
Posts: 189
Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 10:28
Contact:

Re: New feature: Whitelisting!

Post by Z » 26 Jun 2007, 17:25

One more thing. When I'm using whitelisting... Following information is missing from first message that comes trough:

Btw. Key stuff is working perfectly.

X-TrashMail-Forwards: 10000 of 10000 left
X-TrashMail-Expire_Date: 23 December 2007 - 07:53:17
X-TrashMail-Modify_Link: XXX

I don't know how you implemented whitelisting queue. But when messages are released from queue, those should go trough "normal" process. Add those headers, set from field etc...

- Thanks

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